DN #11: polsia - The AI Co-Founder That Autonomously Runs Your Startup (w/ Ben Cera)

Niklas:Hi and huge welcome to you, my lovely listeners. So glad you're here. Today you are joining me for a chat with Ben. Ben is building Pulsier, which autonomously operates your business. Ben, so nice to have you.

Ben (polsia.com):Yeah, good to be here.

Niklas:I stumbled across Palsy I think on X not so long ago, like two weeks maybe. ⁓ Because it was going quite viral and you're working on a topic that I find super interesting and I say that a lot of follow struggle was it especially technical ones and that's automating marketing I would say. How did you start?

Ben (polsia.com):Mm-hmm. So I mean, it's interesting because I spent all of 2025 trying to build this new company that I named Pulsea because I wanted the Pulsea to do the reverse of AI Slabs. So trying to build tools that are actually sort of following human taste and creativity and create great things on the internet and in the world. But I didn't start out by building this specific product that people know as Balsia, which is this AI that builds and runs companies autonomously. I started out by building a bunch of different products in different verticals that were essentially the stack of how you run a company. So I started out with an app that makes apps. So was mostly coding tools and product management and how you build an orchestration and a seamless experience for users to build a product seamlessly. ⁓ And then later on, I built another product that was mostly on decision making. Like how do I take decisions as a CEO and how do I help get AI to help me ⁓ take decisions on a day to day and take the right decisions. You know, if I give it a to-do list of like a hundred items, like what are the things that I should do today to go forward? And lastly, I started working on the marketing tools. So I built another product that was working and trying to, you know, automate a lot of the marketing tool, the marketing techniques. that are out there so that for all the parts I was building, could automate the grind of the daily marketing, which is like ⁓ posting on social media, building creatives for ads, posting them, pruning the bad ones, increasing budgets on the good ones, ⁓ influencer marketing, email marketing, so all this stuff, right? And honestly, at that point, I was a little tired because I realized that all those products individually, didn't really fascinate me or excite me. ⁓ And also, they were so easy to build. But then after you build them, there's the data they grind to get them to market and polish them and create a community and market them, et cetera. And I decided that actually I need to build one product. And what about creating a product that would do it all? That would go to the end state of the internet, which is a ⁓ a platform where AI does all the work so that humans can just give it any idea and the idea will be executed and put in the world with no effort.

Niklas:For the listeners, maybe walk us through what happens when I set up Polzia as it is today. I set it up, I pay the money, what do I get?

Ben (polsia.com):So actually, even without paying the money, you give it an idea, and it will start creating a blueprint. It's sort of like a playground, a workspace for the company, which is it sets up a landing page. It researches competitors, creates a of like a market research report, a mission document that's going to guide the agents on sort of like what is the mission of the company you're building. ⁓ It's gonna create a landing page. It's gonna tweet. It's like announced the start of the company. It's gonna set up an email address for you. ⁓ And so it already does a lot of things to set up sort of like the base of like your company. And once you start your free trial, you actually get access to a web server, a GitHub account. like all the things that are needed to start building the product for real, with professional grade infrastructure. And then you have a series of agents that can start working on your product. They have access to all the APIs, so you don't have to really set up anything. You can run ads. So what you get is really an AI that's going to work for you on your company, never give up, work every night on a specific task for the business. report to you in the morning via email ⁓ with what it did, what it will do tomorrow, and what is the state of the business. So think about it as an AI team, an AI co-founder that never gives up, that's always going to be positive about your idea, and try to figure out what is the best way to execute it and go to market.

Niklas:I think it's really interesting. We have been all been looking at towards like cloud code, think. And a lot of the, at least what I've seen lately has been in the coding space. I think this like more generalistic exploration is very exciting. ⁓ And I think you also explore different business strategies, like taking a revenue card, something like that. How does this work and why did you decide to go this way?

Ben (polsia.com):Yeah, so I mean, you know, like when I was building it, once I realized that it was possible and like, you know, when I launched it, ⁓ Opus 4.5 had just came out, which was a very transformative model that was way more capable and way more capable at like using any tool you would give it, right? So was able to actually execute things, do browser use, way better. And so the idea was like, OK, this is impressive. And it's going to be impressive for a lot of people. And it can be a mass market product. And actually, there is a world where the 99 % of people that are non-technical, they need to get access to these tools so that they wake up and realize that those tools are powerful. So we avoid a world where only people use code and are technical or sort of like, closer to the sort of quote unquote the coast, right? Closer to like where the privileged ⁓ few are. ⁓ We wanna make sure that those tools are available to anyone. And so when you try to build a consumer product that's broadly available, pricing becomes very sensitive, right? You don't wanna make it too expensive because if you make it too expensive, it's the same result. Like it's a tool for the rich quote unquote for the people that can afford it. And so when I was thinking about pricing, was like, well, I really want to make it as cheap as possible, I mean, as affordable as possible, so that I can pay back the cost of the intelligence, right? So the $49 a month includes a lot of value, because it includes one task every night. It includes unlimited chat with a state-of-the-art model. It includes a web server that is like $5 to $7 a month. It includes API credits so that you can run your any APIs without having to add more money to it. It includes additional tasks in case you want to go faster. And so all this is really expensive. so pretty much, my process was like, you know what? Try to just break even on the $49 so that more people can try it. Over time, maybe you'll have margins at $49 as the cost of intelligence goes down. But you kind of need to have a business. So you need to make money somewhere. So what about? aligning with the user and making sure that like, ⁓ I take a cut if they are successful. So like, if they're able to generate revenue, then I take a cut. But at that point, the user is like, came from like, they just spent 50 bucks and now they have a ⁓ business that generates like another 50 bucks or like 100 bucks a month or like whatever it is, right? And so they'll be happy to pay the 20 % because without the AI and the service, they wouldn't have been able to. ⁓ And so the idea is taking a cut. And today's 20 % and may change over time. We'll see how the market dynamics go. But the idea is taking a cut on the economic outcomes that are happening on the platform versus taking a cut on the pure intelligence. So the way to think about it is, Paul, you as your co-founder, it's like, OK, you know what? Just pay me a salary so that I can just pay my rent and eat. But in exchange, I want equity. I'll take 20 % equity in your business, and you have 80%. That's sort of the vibe that I'm going after. So yeah.

Niklas:I think it's really interesting because I would agree that while the tools that we have on hand, if we pay for it, a Claude Code Max plan, which is the one you would probably want if you want to build something, is like $100 roughly. And $100 in a lot of the world is a lot of money. It's that they're the privileged few countries where there are quite a number of people who can afford it. Outside of that, gets... quite small, I would say. that probably also I've never really looked into it, but my assumption would be that for a lot of these two, it's actually adoption in Southeast Asia, for example, would be a lot lower because it's just not so affordable. seeing this approach of taking a cut is really, really, really interesting. ⁓ How do people react? Are they happy with that? idea does it work? Do you get the 20 % revenue? How does it play out?

Ben (polsia.com):Yeah, I mean, there's a few people that have contacted me saying, hey, like I'm running this like specific business where the margins are low. And so if on top of it, Polsia takes 20%, ⁓ it becomes I'm underwater. And in those cases, I tell them, well, just ask Polsia to install your own Stripe and you know, it will do it because at the of the day, it's like a very intelligent model. Of course you have to give it an API key and you have to do all the setup yourself, whatever. But by default, if the user just doesn't, doesn't even, because most people don't know what Stripe is, right? They're like, most people they're like, I don't know, like ⁓ I started a business online. Like, and that's the promise that is more attractive to someone who's non-technical. They're like, they never, they don't even know where to start. They don't know what cloud is, right? They don't know what cloud code is. They don't know what code is. They don't know what Stripe is. don't know what a web server is. They don't know what GitHub is, right? And so Pulsio is saying that, I'm like, you don't have to know. Like, it's fine. We'll abstract everything for you because AI is able to figure it out for you. so there's a few people, usually it's people that are actually themselves technical. And it's kind of cool to see that even technical people find value in Pulsio because it's just since it's autonomous. It's less, you don't have to prompt it every day, right? You can if you want to prompt it and like talk to it and actually people talk to it a lot. But it's more conversation with your AI co-founder more than like prompting it, because that's not how it works. ⁓ But the idea is that like, yeah, for non-technical people, there's not really any pushback because it's like, well, if I actually generate revenue, well, it's revenue that like I never knew I could generate anyway, so. And also, it's like people, you think about starting a new business, it's usually way more expensive to think about, like the budget to start a new business. If you're not technical, it's like, I need to hire a dev and to hire a freelancer that can build my site. And developers are very expensive. Even if they're like in other countries that have lower price labor, it's still like 20, 30 bucks an hour. So it adds up very quickly. So yeah, I think it's pricing that's fine. I think over time, as people start making 10K, 100K a month on the platform, as the platform matures, those folks may be like, hey, 20 % is a little high. Can we do 15? And I think at that point, it makes a lot of sense for me to have sort of like a laddered pricing where the more you're successful on the platform, the less the platform takes. And I think something that we will eventually do because End of the day, we want to be the best priced platform. And that's what the scale that we are getting at will enable us to do. Because the bigger you are, the better prices you can get from all the providers you work with, which means we'll pass on the savings to our customers so that more people can play the game of building a company.

Niklas:And I think that is, I mean, that is fairly normal, I would say. Also even Stripe and others, I heard at least that if you're a really large account, they will start negotiating a custom rate for you. If you're small, you're paying the standard rate, everybody pays. And I also find this idea very interesting that you say, okay, if you're technical, okay, I track the revenue via Stripe. if you're technical and you really can do it yourself and you want to do it yourself, that's the optimization criteria go by yourself. the example that comes to mind when I think about it is actually Shopify. Shopify, just read it like two days ago. Toby Lutger posted on X that in the beginning he got passed on by an investor who said, okay, they have 40,000 online shops. This market is just not large enough. ⁓ We will not invest. But what happened is Shopify actually reduced the friction so much to create an online shop that there were suddenly hundreds of thousands of online shops popping up that got enabled by Shopify. think that maybe there's a similar market where if you make the friction low enough to launch a product actually through a tool like Palsier or other ones in the same space, then the market also just explodes. And then you don't have to really deal with

Ben (polsia.com):Mm-hmm.

Niklas:these people you can still treat them the same way because it's just not really the market that matters. The markets that matters are the ones, as you said, who are non-technical, who suddenly can do something they never could do.

Ben (polsia.com):Exactly. No, exactly. As you said, think the time for like, it's funny because sometimes people tell me, like, you could reach out. There's so many small businesses that could benefit from Pulsio. And I'm like, yes. And there's also billions of people that have never started a business, but you know, that are creative. Everyone's creative in their own ways. Everyone has ideas. Everyone has lives in a specific world in a specific sort of like community and have specific, you know, niche interests. And I think that's where AI gets interesting is when everyone is unable to build that creates an age of abundance and creativity where of course 80 % of the ideas may fail, but the act of creation is not meant to succeed all the time, right? I've created so many products in my life, and most of them I fail, actually, because I always try new things. But those projects that failed inspired me to build other things that succeeded. ⁓ So it's not about, I think, this age of abundance of creativity that Pulsier enables and other tools enable as well, and more tools will enable, is is actually not even targeting existing businesses, enterprise, right, that are already creating in the world. It's enabling anyone to create. And that's the future I think we want, right? A future that like, where AI becomes the playing field, ⁓ where everything feels more fair and the best ideas win versus versus the ideas that win or the ideas that are well-funded, that are ⁓ from people that are more privileged or people that speak louder. I mean, think the speaking louder part, there's an argument that marketing will always be important, so I guess you need to speak loud. But you can speak louder if you have an AI that tells you where to speak louder. So I'm excited for this. And that's sort of what motivates me to work long hours every day with no break. ⁓ to make this future a reality.

Niklas:Yeah, I think ⁓ it would definitely be fairer if ability mattered more, right? So if it's not so much about the, I would say the economic background that you're from, but it's just really, you have certain abilities that still set you apart in a really fair world, you would have like at least an equal or better chance. ⁓ I think that's probably not true. ⁓ We that live in the Western world profit from that a lot actually. So we are kind of born lucky, I would say. But there's also a lot of people who are very capable who were born less lucky. And I think that is very interesting when you talk about enablement, ⁓ that ability gives you actually a chance to move faster. And I don't know, do you already have customers in these Southeast Asian markets, for example, where is your main customer base at? currently.

Ben (polsia.com):Main customer base is US, ⁓ but there's people in like using it in 30 plus countries ⁓ because building a business is a very universal, you know, want. so I think that's what makes Bolsia special. And that's why it's been growing so fast is because the promise of being able to build a business in a much more simple way is very attractive to a lot of people. Of course, it's not a magic wand, right? It's not like a get rich quick product, you know, our scheme. It's a, it's a, yeah, if you want to build a business, it's going to be way easier and cheaper than doing it either way. Especially if you're not technical and you don't know code and you don't even know, you don't even want to go there. And, and today it's like pretty good at doing so. And there's people making money and people also using it for their existing business. to help them grow their existing business with labor that's way cheaper than what they could afford. ⁓ And I think as the product gets better and better and they're more capable and more capable, the idea is that any idea you give it, you'll have an AI team that will execute on it. That's a crazy world, right? It's like imagine any idea, even if you're like, wanna open a small bakery in Berlin. and I want it to look like this, the AI should be like, cool, awesome. Well, you're going to need to put this much money in your wallet so that I have enough to put a down payment and do this. yeah, I can reach out ⁓ to brokers and ⁓ send you a few options. And then I can handle all the payments. And then can handle the legal side. And I can find stuff. That sounds crazy, but like, AI is really capable of doing all that stuff if it's well harnessed. And if you have a team that can execute any idea you have, that's where things are going to be amazing, right? Because then humans are creative directors and AI is like the ops team, right? The engineering and ops team that just does the day-to-day grunts that nobody really wants to do.

Niklas:Yeah, I feel that is amazing. And obviously success proves you right already. So if you look at the growth numbers, I think you posted some ARR numbers already. What are you at currently? So where is it heading?

Ben (polsia.com):6.3, 6.3, something like that.

Niklas:I found it's not so long ago that it was 1.5, right? So the growth curve, as you look, like month over month growth, what's the growth you're currently experiencing?

Ben (polsia.com):Thanks. mean, it's easy to do crazy numbers when you start very small. But I think right now we are on the new signups and new active companies that are paying and getting a credit card and playing the game. It's like we're growing 30 % week over week.

Niklas:Yeah, which is, even if you're small, you make like, these numbers, it's ridiculous, right? If it compounds. and, and this, I think this is really also very interesting, ⁓ because it also was a journey for you to, to get there. Like if we go back a bit, I think you went from a more corporate executive role to starting your own businesses. How, why did you do the journey? How did you?

Ben (polsia.com):Yeah.

Niklas:How did you decide on?

Ben (polsia.com):I mean, yeah, I mean, I've alternated being a CEO founder to being to follow and other CEO founders. I've turned it quite a bit. I've alternated like starting products alone and I've turned it starting companies with other people. ⁓ And I think it's every, you know, I think I think life is a journey and it's a movie and like, you know, every chapter makes sense. when you look backwards, when you move forward, sometimes you can be impatient or you can think that like, oh, why is this idea not working? But when I look back, every success and every failure taught me stuff that made me build Pulsia. And so I'm very grateful for that. And so some examples, my previous company right before Pulsia was was with two other co-founders, they're both really talented, ⁓ but we could not get along because it's like we had perspectives that were very different. And it's actually funny because just before this podcast, I was on one hour call with my co-founder from my previous company that's still running. And I was like, and we were deciding to work together again, but like from a different capacity, right? Because they're like sort of like, the previous company I built was like working with heritage brands and like helping on like creating culture and brand and marketing for those brands. And so I'm very excited to work with them again. But at the time, it was so frustrating for me to have co-founders that everyone was saying that everyone was respecting each other, but we couldn't get to a conclusion. And so we spent our time just in meetings debating. And so that pushed me to build Pulsia alone. I went to the other extreme, which is always the case, where I was like, you know what? I'm going to be alone now because I can't deal with other people for now. And that extreme had a lot of consequences because then I was like, oh yeah, but I have AI. So I can use AI. And then I raised a small pre-seed, and I told investors, yeah, I'm going to hire another engineer and a growth marketer. Then I was like, ugh, I don't know. is my engineer and my growth marketer. So why would I hire someone? And that pushed me to build Pulsio. So looking backwards, I'm so grateful for those two years I spent with the super talented other folks where it was a nightmare sometimes debating over and over. But those debates created the reason why I built Pulsio. And I think right before I was working with Travis Kalanick, iCloud Kitchens, the Uber founder, so grateful to have worked with him. And obviously he's such a legendary entrepreneur. And I was able to report to him for five years and work with him. And he enabled me and mentored me into building a pretty big business, like a 100 million plus business, ⁓ very fast across countries. And that was such a fun experience. And now that I build Pulse here, I'm like, ⁓ thank God I built that. And I saw that man build the way he builds. Because now I'm like, OK, now I understand the playbook to take a good idea and really make it big. And I'm not saying I'm going to be able to, but now I have confidence in what to do, if that makes sense. which is a better feeling because I'm not scared. I'm not like, what should I do? How do you get to go to another country? How do you think about marketing? How do you think about margins? How do you think about capital raise? I'm like, well, I've seen it because I've seen the goats just do it at scale at Cloud Kitchen. So same thing. I'm like, OK, makes sense I went through this because if I hadn't, I would have maybe also built Pulsio, but that would have been like, I don't know, like a What should I do? And not have been confident enough to take it where I think I want to take it. Yeah, I mean, previous to that, when I started my career in my entrepreneurial career, I built a bunch of products where I was the engineer, the product manager, and I always started those products alone, actually. So that alone grind wasn't s**t. strange, it wasn't strange to me. And at the time it was like a very different journey because it was Stack Overflow, it was like trying to fix bugs for like hours and hours, trying to debug things. But at the of the day it was like all of this in service of like a user experience, of product, of like, you know, and it's a very addictive feeling to create world digitally and like sort of like getting users to use it and to experience it. I see really a lot of those internet products as odd projects. ⁓ Sometimes they're odd projects that are pragmatic and that have an outcome. if you can make people feel ⁓ delight, I think it's a very powerful thing.

Niklas:And there are a lot of like, I would even say if you look back at it, there are quite a number of unpredictable outlier successes, I would say. Like, if you look at eBay, for example, it was part-time. The guy built it next to his job, then became more than his salary and then he decided to do it full-time. And I think they are like, as you said then, especially on the... on the internet and with the number of businesses, a bit like the Shopify story. So the market didn't exist at that point in time. So people weren't predicting that it is such a good idea because there wasn't a real market yet, be it Facebook or a lot of them, Google, for example. think there were, for a lot of these actually, you, in hindsight, it's clear if you looked at it at the point in time. A lot of people say no to the opportunities, right? So I think this is kind of the special thing that we have in the digital products. It's always been comparable easy and a lot of times very overlooked. Like the outlier success stories often were not trivial to spot in the first place, they become easy to spot later on, but not. And I would even say Uber wasn't. In the very beginning it was. was also not one of these that were trivial to say that it would become this big. Now it's trivial for us to say it, but at the time when it was started, it wasn't.

Ben (polsia.com):Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Niklas:And that's it. If we draw the link back to Posseo, now you have these growth rate, it's clear that you have product market fit. Was it clear to you when you started? I think you started alone, it made a lot of sense to build something you would also use on your day-to-day basis. When did it click? When did you feel you have something?

Ben (polsia.com):I mean, what I would say is that, again, Pulsia was the fourth product I shipped, ⁓ the fourth or fifth product I shipped within a six-month period. So I feel like product market fit was very clear, very fast, actually. But also it was the result of learning how people react to coding tools, how people react to marketing tools, how people react to decision-making tools, how people react to more and more autonomy. And so when I built Pulsia, it was a result of all those learnings. And I think that when I shipped the product, I hustled, gave it to a bunch of friends. I contacted every user that I've used the previous product that I shipped that year, saying, hey, the founder of XYZ, I just launched a new product. And so I was able to get, I don't know, 100 people or whatever it was to really try the product. And at the beginning, it was like a... seven-day free trial, like 14-day free trial. I don't remember, but it was like a free trial for long time. Like you could do whatever you want for seven days to 14 days. But very fast, the first thing that was very, very clear to me is that people were coming back every day, which means they cared. Because honestly, like these days, there's so many products out there. It's easy to try a product and to sign up and even to pay, but the churn is usually really high because it's like, cool, all right. Even myself on the day-to-day, there's very few products I use every day, right? Even AI products. ⁓ And so when you start seeing people using it every day and talking to Pulsia on the daily basis and sort of getting attached to it and sort of guiding it on what they want it to do, very early on I understood that I built something special because... And then it was more like, OK, once people get it, they really like it. So then it becomes, how do get them to get it faster? So that's where the onboarding today, which is a very seamless experience, where now you just give your email, and then you essentially say, I want to build a new company, or I want Borsia to help me on an existing company. And then essentially in a couple of clicks, you right away start with an autonomous agent that just starts researching you. looking for ideas and looking for competitors and doing market research and creating a landing page and tweeting, like all of this in a three to five minute type of timeline. It's like how do, and the work was like how do I get people to the wow moment in the first few minutes, right? And once you do that, you can convert a lot of people to be like, okay, I'll try the free trial, like that's crazy, right? I'll try the three day free trial. And at that point, you get people hooked in because now there's like a daily loop, a daily autonomous loop where people get pulled back into the product every day. And sometimes I hear people who are like, you know, I signed up and the first two weeks, like I was like, eh, whatever, right? But I kind of forgot about it because people are busy and I was getting the emails, but I wasn't really reading with them. And then two weeks later, I was like, oh my God, it built all this stuff. And then, wow, it's actually did all this stuff. And it took my idea to a state where like actually it works and like it's cool. And I have a friend who was like, oh, the beginning like there was a bug and like it didn't work. And I was like, just fix it. like, and I forgot about it. And then two weeks later, it was like, it was fully fixed. And like it had contacted people and then had tweeted a few times. And there was like, wow, it like autonomously sort of like started building the business while I was doing other things. And so, and then once people understand that and once people So there's the first wow moment that like I really engineered and designed to get people from what is this thing to ⁓ wow. And then, and then there's like all the work to get actual real progress daily. And I think there's like convincing people to try it, convincing people to get to the wow moment, then convincing people that like, ⁓ wow, this thing can work. It's not perfect. Sometimes there's bugs, ⁓ but like, I get it, it can take my idea and do things. And then a of people are like, okay cool, actually nevermind this idea, I wanna do a new idea. I actually have five ideas. And that's where I think it gets interesting because you get from someone who's like, it's sort of like the same way we all went through this with try GPT, I remember at the beginning I was using try GPT and I was like, this is cool but whatever. And then I was asking my friends, do you use it? How often do you use it? And another friend was like, dude I use it every day. And I was like, how do you use it every day? And then suddenly I clicked, I was like. ⁓ wow, okay I get it now. I can give it everything. It can be my sort of like coach. And then you start opening your eyes to what's possible and then you become a daily user because you start understanding how to leverage it to be more efficient or to be more creative or to be more whatever you want. And I think Pulsier is similar. once you're like, what does it do? Okay it's cute but like does it really do it? And then once you're like, ⁓ wow. it's able to run a company for me or project for me or an idea for me or creative project for me or help me with my existing business or help me with a personal idea. Like it doesn't matter. Then once you get it, it's like, okay, now it's possible. Now your mind is expanded and now ⁓ you're able to, you can give it more ideas or you can change your mind. And now it becomes this like AI employee that just acts for you. And that's the states where If we can get like millions of people, billions of people to get it fast, you'll get an age of abundance where like a lot of people can create value and get income and like start being more independent ⁓ instead of this concentration of wealth that we see today in the world.

Niklas:Yeah, it's really, so I think it's really impressive. And I'm also really curious where you think it's heading for the next two to three years. What do you think are the next steps down the road?

Ben (polsia.com):So for Posty or for AI in general, for the world?

Niklas:So for POSIA and also for, I would say autonomous tools, maybe if we talk about AI.

Ben (polsia.com):For Pulsia, the way I look at Pulsia is that it's not a tool, it's more of an economy. ⁓ It's an economy where today it's mostly solopreneurs that are using AI to turn their idea into things, businesses, projects, whatever it is. We're gonna introduce very soon a ⁓ layer of investors, right? So Pulsia will be the first investor where Pulsia can be like, hey, I've identified users that are doing really well on the platform, that are hustling, and here's more credits or maybe a little bit of marketing budget that you can spend to get your project on Pulsia to the next level. But you can also think about other folks that are like, that don't really want to hustle on like a company specifically, but they can invest in other companies or they can acquire other companies. Like in the real world, right? It's like, you know, there's people like me that are hustling to build companies. And then there's like people that have more money that are like, I want to invest or I want to buy a company. And so I think building this economy and also introducing multiplayer and having this idea of people building companies together, there's so many ideas I have of how to make it more like an economy and an ecosystem rather than like a solo player game, which is today. So I think that's how we Polsci evolving. It's more this ecosystem, this community in this economy, and also at the same time making Polsci way more capable so that anything you can think of, any economic activity in the world can be acted upon by Palsia on your behalf. Now, when it comes to how the world is going to evolve, well, I think that like, you know, what Pete's built with Op-N-Claw, what I built with Palsia, were just like the first few of a new generation of products. They're going to have different approaches, different interfaces. They're going to target different countries, different this, different that. And they're going to build essentially autonomous AI employees or AI humans that work for you, right? Either work for you in a specialized way or work for you in a generalized way. And I think that's going to be very interesting to see. that's where autonomy is inevitable. There's obviously a lot of like infrastructure to build to make that a reality. know, Paul says working with a lot of companies and that are building that infrastructure because it's not trivial for the economy to accept an AI agent to start paying for things. And, you know, there's KYC situations where it's like, well, who is this agent from? it like a U S is it representing a U S citizen? Is it representing someone who who should be able to use the service that the agent is trying to ask. all this stuff is going to create a lot of interesting infrastructure to build. But it will be built. And there will be this new economy that it will be AI powered through and through. And I think, again, I think the future is an age of abundance. What will happen after that age of abundance becomes less clear to me. I'm neither an optimist, neither a pessimist, but I'm ⁓ I think that, I think there are, ⁓ I mean, I think like everyone building in this space, it's like, you cannot be completely doomsday, but it would be naive to think that there's no risk into where it goes. I think my biggest worry, and it will happen, but like, I don't know how exactly it will play out, is a world where agents start being the ones with money. And so they are the ones who are buying these goods and services to each other. And so the economy becomes agents to agents versus today, the idea of policy is like human using agents to sell to another human. So that's just human society augmentation. if it's like humans with lots of money gives it to a fund and that fund hires agents to go buy or exchange with other agents from another hedge fund, which it will also happen. That gets weird because then the economic activity is just agents to agents. it's purely AI intelligence working with each other, exchanging value, and humans, humans can reap the benefit, but it's probably gonna be concentrated. And so in that world, if it gets extremely concentrated, obviously it will be taxed, that concentration of wealth. ⁓ But essentially the people, the 99%, will be on welfare, right? They will get a check because there will need to be situations, but that's sort of like slavery, right? It's like if you depend on a government to survive, that becomes very unempowering and like very difficult, I think, for someone. ⁓ So I hope we can avoid that. ⁓ But those are the different scenarios I'm seeing in the future.

Niklas:Yeah, regarding the last one, also think it's not, then you also have a concentration of power in the government, right? When they hand out all the money, it's also, you're very close to ending up in a dictatorship situation. So I would also prefer these things not to happen, to be honest. So maybe adding to the first one, I also, I believe very strongly in what is called Jevons paradox. Like when, ⁓ In the beginning, I think we had oil lamps and before that fire. And when we discovered electricity, we didn't just keep everything the same, but we really started to light up the cities. So we have street lanterns everywhere. We just started to use a lot more. And in general, I am a strong believer that if resources become cheaper, we will just use more. And I think the same is true. For software as a service, think we will just see a lot more software products being used and being out there. So I don't believe in a collapse in the market. I just believe that we will build something for every niche and it will be really cheap to buy that. I I rather think this market will explode than shrink. That is my personal opinion ⁓ regarding the I don't want to make a prediction on the point where agents are actually smarter than humans. So that is is a point I'd I have no clue what will happen then. ⁓ Until then, I always think we have to keep in mind that we invented money so we don't have to exchange like bread for bananas or something like that. So that is the basic idea was somebody adds some value with the things they do and they get paid for it in some way, right? And we exchange good and services and we wanted to make it easier. We invented money. I think this fundamental truth that we want to exchange, some people create some value and we want to exchange that, that will stay. And then there's a lot of things happening outside of that and it's very hard to predict. Yeah, but that is the, like at least the fundamentals that I look at and I think they will stay true. They will not change. And they keep me hopeful for even in this more difficult.

Ben (polsia.com):Yeah.

Niklas:times if you had to give some advice to somebody who just wants to become a founder or side hustler listening right now wants to build an AI native company, how should that person start?

Ben (polsia.com):I mean, I think that the first part is tinkering and education, right? And I think that the sooner, it's an example I gave with Try GPT, it's like, personally, took me like maybe, I don't know, three months, six months to be AI-peeled when first Try GPT came out, like, I don't know, like in 2022, let's say 2023. And so one of my advice is like, you you can try POSIA, you can try Cloud Code, you can try, whatever, think those are the main two, MMB Codex. Like one of those, just try it and get a 20 bucks description on cloud or Codex and try the free trial on Pulsio and just understand how powerful those tools are. Once you, and then it's like, just play with them. And it's like, maybe with no expectation of like making money right away or like building a big business. It, it's like, I think the first step is understanding that like AI is capable of doing anything for you. and be your team. And you can be your team with Cloud Code. can be your team with Pulse here. could be your team with Codex. It's just about realizing that AGI is here. when I say AGI is here, a lot of people are like, that's not true. AGI is not here. That's beyond the point, because there's just a definition. But I think if you think about AGI as this super intelligent intelligence that can use any tool to act on your behalf, I think we're pretty much there. The first step is education and it's almost like, you know, like spend like a hundred hours on code or like a hundred hours on Pulse, yeah, a hundred hours on whatever you want. And then, and then once you've built and build like 10 products, build like anything, once you've experienced that, then you can decide what you want to do, which the options would be either you AI-pilled and like, I don't know, like either join a company that's AI-pilled or build yourself or... try to have any idea you have, like try to build them, or realize that like it's not for you and be at peace ⁓ turning off wifi and going to a farm ⁓ in the middle of nowhere and enjoy life, which that sounds really nice too. That's my advice.

Niklas:I think that are really nice final advice words. Thank you so much, Ben, for being on the podcast and you my listener. you next time.

Ben (polsia.com):Sounds good, bye.