DN #26: The Distribution Moat, AI Analytics for SMBs & The End of Email Open Rates (w/ Calvin Lim)

Niklas:Hi and a huge welcome to you, my lovely listener. So glad you're here. Today you're joining me for chat with Calvin. Calvin is a data analyst turned serial entrepreneur and AI builder based in the San Francisco Bay Area. Calvin, so lovely to have you.

Calvin Lim:Yeah, thank you very much. Excited to be here.

Niklas:You're building clarity AI. What is it about?

Calvin Lim:Yeah, so with my experience in working in data, I decided to partner up with a friend to build an AI native analytics tool that is geared towards ⁓ founder-led SMBs and small businesses. What we found in the market today is there is a lot of data tools as we kind of evolve technologically, everything has been built for for the tech users. So as a result, we figured a great market would be tools for non-data people, non-tech people. Think ⁓ someone who owns multiple coffee shops or a family that owns a hotel, they may have scattered data sources. And our goal is to provide a tool that's both affordable ⁓ and easy to use for the Non technical person.

Niklas:I'm technical myself. So I I have dealt with I think databases since my early teen years. I can but I I feel and this is also I think something that is coming up a lot more, that there's a huge market. ⁓ we see it I think with these white coding tools like Loughable or Rapplit, where people now that are non technical actually build Things. Are you going in a similar way with the tool you are building? Where who is your target customer?

Calvin Lim:Yeah, so we're targeting really ⁓ mainly founders outside of the tech space. So one of our early partners, think about it, is ⁓ is someone that's building these little tiny modern homes. Met him on Twitter. he has a bunch of data sources, he's trying to figure out how to run his business and stay competitive. And we're really focused on founders in that mold who don't really have a technical background. But are trying to piece together 10 or 15 different data sources to really understand their business and better run it in order to remain competitive in this ever-changing landscape. you can think of it as a tool that's going to not only empower but inform ⁓ people that may have no idea on certain metrics or data points today and really get a better understanding of of how to modernize their business as things come and go.

Niklas:When you want to describe it or somebody who would use it the first time, what would they see? How would they start? What do they want to typically achieve when they when they start with clarity?

Calvin Lim:Yeah, so ⁓ when someone goes into the platform to the for the first time, I'm under the assumption that this user is someone that doesn't have a lot of data experience. So what we're trying to do is offer a white glove hands-on service to where we guide you how to connect your different data sources. And from there you just ask basic questions of anything you're interested in about your business and the AI native platform will build charts will conversate with you and really walk you through what you're looking at. So say you're someone that has a CRM, you have a different lead generation process, you have some marketing platforms. Our platform brings all the data points together, like a centralized brain, and actually acts as basically a partner analyst. Like it's an agentic AI analyst that offers insights and curates insights on your behalf.

Niklas:When you're looking back at the early journey, ⁓ I'm not how far are you along? Do you have users already on the platform?

Calvin Lim:So we launched an initial version back in March. ⁓ This is totally different than what we have today. Originally we wanted to build basically a no-code ⁓ dashboarding tool for small businesses. So think mom and pops, coffee shops, local restaurants, something where they just plug in different data sources and they could get a dashboard to run their business. ⁓ after meeting initial venture capitalists, early ⁓ investors, we decided to pivot and really focus on this idea of being truly AI native and offering three different layers, which is going to be the analytics layer, ⁓ the intelligence layer or data brain, and then the last piece is going to be an orchestration layer where we will allow users to trigger a workflow and and basically use AI agents in the background to automate some of these processes that are recommended from the data. That way it creates the full loop because we found that some of our users, although they get nice data, they actually don't do anything about it. So sometimes the ball drops at the analytics layer or kind of that action at the end. ⁓ And then we're starting to roll out our next version and really work to find true design partners.

Niklas:When you when you're looking at the journey so far, what's been the hardest thing that you have or that you had to solve till now?

Calvin Lim:I think it's always distribution. The more I go to events, I participate actively in startup events, in San Francisco, as well as going to New York Tech Week, I think everyone is trying to face that same problem of I can everyone can build a product, everyone can build a demo. How do we distribute it to the right audience? How do we market our product when anyone else can come into the to the space today and spend three, four weeks and build something similar? So distribution is the new moat versus, you know, five years ago it was your product. ⁓ now you see all these giant tech companies are getting beat up on the stock market because there's so much competition where every other week, if you're on product hunt, you see a new CRM coming out or you see another AI tool coming out. So there's so much competition today. It's so the focus has really been how do we get our product out there into the hands of the right people.

Niklas:Yeah, I I've been wondering about this a lot lately. If it's not kind of always been true for software, we just didn't see it because it took so much longer to build it and obviously there was less competition, which is true, but you still had to scale your product, right? So this this is not a new problem. Like after the initial you be I mean, you have to make something people want that's I think is very clear and you still have to somehow get a product market fit. But I think the the large thing that

Calvin Lim:Mm-hmm.

Niklas:that changed is yes, it's very cheap to do now and it's really fast. So time to market is very low and also this so so it just surfaces a lot earlier if you're if you really are able to acquire customers, if the product is good enough that people will recommend it to their friends. Like these these classical topics, I think they just surface a lot earlier. What do you think about that?

Calvin Lim:Yeah, I think I think the the roadblock has moved from really development to just better marketing and and really building and getting yourself out there. And I think although what you mentioned of getting of word of mouth and organic ⁓ growth and community like growth, that certainly works in spaces for ⁓ B2C. But since we're more in the B2B space, ⁓ it's a little difficult. ⁓ I have a background in building ⁓ consumer businesses. So we've sold electronics, I've sold sporting equipment, I we ran a store on Amazon. And having that background, I have this notion of trying to really understand the customer before I sell them something. And I think that sometimes get that gets in the way of of being the best salesperson is when I talk to some potential customers and I see what they're working on, I I am upfront, I'm honest with them, that they may not need certain technologies at this time and trying to really spend my time adding value to their to what they're doing versus just strictly pitching a product.

Niklas:I think it's it's different for it's not so different in a sense that you would still have like trade shows or something like that. And the same people like industries are often not that large. Like people know each other at the end of the day. It depends a bit probably on whom you're selling to. If you're selling to the really small shops, it might might be a little bit different. But otherwise if you look at typical industries, I've seen that in B2B CS a lot then People still talk to each other. The real difference to B2C is obviously that the sales cycles are a lot longer. So you you don't ⁓ and B2B, depending on whom you're selling to or this is very different. And if you're selling to large companies, I would also say that the total process is different because your buyer will not be the user. Like if you're selling to small companies, your buyer will still the be the user, maybe. So the people that actually use your software will also be the one that do the Personness decisions. That's definitely not true. Like if you look at a large company, because the people that will buy it are totally different. They will never touch that. And the people who make the buying decisions, once again, probably are also very different from the ones that use it and the ones who are involved in the purchasing process. So current that it's really this is really interesting. And but at the end of the day, I still believe that if you have like the access to to for example trades organization or something like that that that helps a lot with s with scaling so it's still still work off with ⁓ word of mouth that works quite well and ⁓ the real difference it takes a lot longer.

Calvin Lim:I think th you're on to something really interesting today 'cause Being in the Bay Area, everybody's offering running these ads to say, hey, hire your AI, BDR, SDR, hire an AI agent to run your sales cycle or your go-to-market. And I think with the consumer base that I'm looking for, with the businesses that I'm looking for, I'm focused on people that are not approachable easily with AI, right? These are people that are not well versed in the technical space. They want the human to human interaction. And then we also see this with ⁓ some of the companies, some of these startups that are challenging the norm, they're trying to figure out a way to bring in real life interaction back because they realize that the moment you bring some of these ⁓ founders in or some of these people into your event and you start building connection with them, it's so much easier to pitch them a product to get them to come to a demo versus hiring an AI tool to to really do all your your marketing, your sales and your lead nurturing. I think ⁓ I'm sure you're well aware of what Corgi is doing, right?

Niklas:Yeah, one hundred percent. And I I also I had a chat with ⁓ A VC actually on the podcast to whom I discussed this like cold outreach, ⁓ that is happening a lot. I also with AI SDRs, ⁓ like getting massive amount of spam emails, I would call them actually. So these things. And he wasn't really a fan of it. He was still a fan of like

Calvin Lim:Mm-hmm.

Niklas:Just tell me the hundred people you can find that you can talk to directly and do a business deal for the first hundred users or something like that, or a hundred customers that you get. That that was that was his view on it. And I kind of agree because the if it's easy to do for you, it's also easy to do for others. If you find something that is really easy to do for you and very hard to do for everybody else, then you're probably onto something. But if it's easy to do for everybody else and that it's a super competitive market. And you will not get like outlier results. That that is my opinion.

Calvin Lim:That that's why like when a lot of people use the same tools, right? I think Clay is very big, Apollo, ⁓ some of these mainstream tools, everybody is sourcing from the same lead list. It just increases competition and one thing that people often look at is email opening rates. I think with AI tools today, even email opening rates don't mean anything, right? Because you can have your AI agent scan your inbox, read all your emails, and it shows up as red. It could show up as red in a system. with AI tools today, even email opening rates don't mean anything, right? Because you can have your AI agent scan your inbox, ⁓ read all your emails, and it shows up as red. So I think So I think I think Yeah, that that's really important is to figure out something that is unique and that can't be easily replicated in your distribution model, whether it's hosting in real life events and getting organic leads from word of mouth or going grassroots and going to a small business expo or a small business event that is less geared towards tech, but really more geared towards your ⁓ your general customers. I think there's different ways to kind of figure out how you that that's really important is to figure out something that is unique and that can't be easily replicated in your distribution model, you can really hone in on a strategy that is that someone else can't come in today and say, Hey, I see you're doing this, I can just copy word for word of of what you're doing.

Niklas:Yeah, and ⁓ and I think it's the same with like software building. I we we see it a lot, right? It's ⁓ it's become so easy to ⁓ build software. So what it's obvious that software I think the market for software will get a lot bigger, but it will also get a lot more competitive. So the question is how much of the margins that are there today will remain, which I think ⁓ it's Probably even more more obvious in San Francisco than it's here in Europe. I think Europe l always lags a little bit behind. ⁓ but we have seen it on the stock market and we're seeing it in general that the market is just flooded with new ⁓ SAS tools. And ⁓ while I believe that this would just create like the market the total market will will explode, so it will get a lot larger. I don't think it go It will go to zero. So our software's dead, that I don't believe. But I believe that the time of the really nice margins is actually dead. So like selling seats for a lot of money this time is this time is over. So we will we will see a lot more businesses that operate on a lot tighter margins than it we were used to and software as a service for a very long time. What's your take on that?

Calvin Lim:I think that's hundred percent correct. I think there's only so much money that can go around. ⁓ and you see that with massive layoffs at some of these top tech firms where they're replacing headcount with ⁓ AI tools because their margins are really getting thin. You know, you see this at Square, you may see this at like Coinbase, Microsoft, Amazon, all these big name companies that are realizing that as AI has kind of allowed everyone to be a founder, everyone to be a creator, it's also really chipped away at their margins and they have less margin for error in order for them to to continue to remain competitive and remain the top player in their market, they decided to cut some jobs, reduce headcount, and focus on AI tooling to improve vision efficiency. ⁓ Because there's only so much money that can go around in in this space. I think it's gonna increase the the amount of budget ⁓ companies have to spend on tooling, on AI tools, on software is gonna increase. ⁓ but there's a finite amount, right? We can't just go out and and keep printing out money. ⁓ and I think it's gonna be a very important inflection point in the future of of at which point do we continue to use AI or at which point is there a pushback in in human labor, manual labor is is cheaper than using AI due to token cost?

Niklas:That would change, right? So what would we so I'm very interested in in two trends there actually. So what I've seen recently is that in China they resell entropic tokens. So it's not so trivial to get a subscription there, at least as I understand it. But what ⁓ companies then do is they pool a ton of entropic subscription and they sell tokens and As far as I understand it, the token prices are like 93% cheaper than what we're seeing here. So this is really interesting. So they they are trying to push that. And that's what the open weight models in China compete with. So the open weight models like from DeepSeq or ⁓ others, they have to price extremely aggressively to be competitive against these ⁓ companies in the market. And also when when we look at it, like the latest open weight models, especially GLM 5.2, they seem to get pretty close to what opus level like four point six or something like that. That's pretty much what I'm hearing right now. So if we get usefulness level ⁓ open weight models that are running on less demanding or less sophisticated hardware in a relatively short period of time, like in the next six to twelve months, that are at current like frontier model capabilities. ⁓ I think that will actually start changing. So I would my expectation is token demand will obviously go up, token prices will go down, and I'm really interested in seeing ⁓ when we will get the first models that run on consumer grade hardware that have a usefulness of current opus models. Because that will change a lot, right? Because then the question is will demand for a data centers then continue to go up as fast as it does, or will we reach a point where you don't really need the mainframe or the data center anymore and will we move towards running on on our MacBooks and everything runs locally. So what do you think about that?

Calvin Lim:Well, you bring up really good point of running things locally, right? This brings me back to five or six years ago at the first time there was a giant crypto boom in twenty twenty one and twenty twenty. There was something called helium that came out where you basically had a little hotspot that was a miner in your house, you just connect to Wi Fi and it kind of generates value for you, right? ⁓ we saw this a little bit with some mayor some real or maybe unreal ads with NVIDIA offering some sort of like local ⁓ I'm theorizing that maybe they'll come they can put like a little compute p ⁓ engine in your in your house or you can use residual energy to generate some compute. And I think this is a very interesting shift in in ideology to to where that could be a very po very big possibility in the future and say if you can run you have old laptops around, you can run some compute, and maybe by running local models you give back to the system and you earn a payout, right? ⁓ there was this kind of idea in crypto and I think it's it's not too far fetched to see it happen in in the AI realm and the compute realm because there is sort of that precedent where it works for for crypto and for mining. it could work for for AI compute. ⁓ and then going back to your point about the Chinese models, ⁓ I think that's very interesting because a lot of these Chinese models are basically free, but there's just the hesitancy from companies to use them because of the different ongoing trade negotiations and and kind of split. I think if there was some sort of agreement where companies in the US could start using those models, and there was some security issues that get discussed that kind of get eased, I think that could actually really hit the market and and cause prices to really drop tremendously because now you have these other models like Deep Seek and and everything else from China that are way cheaper than than ⁓ Chat GBT, OpenAI or Entropic.

Niklas:Remember when Deep Sea One came out, Perplexity actually hosted one in the US, right? So they they hosted a version there. So that's something I used for quite a bit. And then if if you get to the these open weight models and some companies, if it's cheap enough to to run the hosting and people and companies are making money with it, you will st they will be supplied by RP. And then then it will actually get very interesting because. Currently, I think we we see a move to the software layer, like the Cloud app, for example, has gotten much more sophisticated. I'm using it a lot more for a long time. I was just using like a chat app that could connect to every model because I like to be able to switch models. Now I'm locked in a bit and I'm already thinking about whether I should get out of that world again and try a tool that can actually connect to all of of them because I don't want to be locked into like one one supplier or provider. So if you if you think about having a tool or harness like ⁓ clawed code, ⁓ switching to an open one and then using other cheap models that are roughly on the same level as Opus, I think I would be pretty fine with it. Have you tried them? Something like that?

Calvin Lim:Have not tried them too much. ⁓ there was an event that I went to about two months ago that was hosted by a friend of mine who works who's runs community and growth at Novita AI and they have this cloud platform that allows you to pick basically tons of hundreds of models that are out there that exist today and you can pick, you know, Deep Seek, you can pick Kimmy, you can pick something else and use those models and and build something out of it. So I'm seeing a shift of companies, these are more like bigger cloud environment companies that offer the ability to connect to models that you may not be using today, but you can have the option to use them. I'm starting to see these options pop up. ⁓ and then ⁓ and then they recently just partnered with Vercel on a on a large project. So you're seeing kind of that little injection of ⁓ more options available and more competition going into the market.

Niklas:I think it will be very exciting to see what happens there. Maybe going back a bit to your journey, ⁓ I think you have been building companies for a very long time. Maybe walk us through a bit how you ended up there and what what also ⁓ what you love about San Francisco, maybe. What's so special about that place?

Calvin Lim:Yeah, so I was born and raised in San Francisco. I grew up ten blocks from the beach. It was it's a great place to be. ⁓ had a I I enjoyed it growing up here. ⁓ and as a kid, my parents actually ran a pet store for about three to five years. So growing up I I spent time with them, kind of saw how they run a bit ran a business. So it's always been kind of in the back of my mind of me wanting to to run my own business. So fast forward to high school, this is like 2011-2012, the peak of the sneaker market. I got into sneakers, but I didn't like wearing sneakers. I just liked the feeling of buying and selling. ⁓ and as a kid, I I pla did a lot at the stock market. I competed in the stock market game, which is like a competition in the United States where you buy and sell stock in in school, and if you win, you get a prize. I ended up winning in California. I got lucky. market crash and I just so happened to invest in gold during the 2008 recession. But I've always had that inkling of of I like the business mechanics. So we did so I started a sneaker business for about eight years. ⁓ That has shifted towards just doing everything from electronics to sneakers to sporting equipment, including a small stint of running an Amazon store. On the flip side, we've I've also started ventures that have not succeeded very well. I had a friend in Indonesia whose ⁓ cousin ran a plantation for coffee. So we tried to do an online coffee store back in 2021 on Shopify. ⁓ And try to partner up with local coffee shops to distribute coffee. We found that costs were exorbitant. It was it was without a very high level supply chain, you would have to sell coffee beans at a very high price. ⁓ so every journey, every step of the way, whether whether I built a successful venture or an unsuccessful venture, I treated them all as a great learning experience. And just fast forward to the winter, ⁓ with kind of everything that's going on in analytics, I thought it was a perfect time. to to work with a friend on kind of building out an idea for fun. And we kind of run a weekly basketball group. In that basketball group, several of the people just so happened to be ⁓ Y Combinator funded or Greylock funded. And they gave us a little shove and they said, Hey, your ID looks pretty good. You I think you should go and see what you can do about it. Don't spend the next six months playing around at home. Why don't you see if anybody's actually gonna use it? Because that's that's gonna be more valuable of an experience than just sitting there and and playing around but not not doing anything with all the time you've spent. Building something.

Niklas:Sounds like an exciting exciting journey. And ⁓ how how did you then develop? Did you directly talk to customers or how did you ⁓ how did you start?

Calvin Lim:So I started basically getting very frustrated with kind of what I was doing at work. I was working in analytics and data science, primarily focused this time around with ⁓ working with sales teams. And what I found was that you can spend hours and hours working in Power BI and Tableau and building these fantastic dashboards. But then when a director looks at it, they may have a million questions and they set up a a a two or three hour meeting trying Trying to understand what they're looking at. And what we realize is that people would really just want to have this interactive conversation with their data. It may not necessarily mean that they need a full-on dashboard, but that just that asking and trying different things with their data is kind of what brought us to this path. ⁓ specifically for kind of that legacy business, that mid-market, those ⁓ smaller companies where they're not using the host of tools today. We found that there's this need in the market ⁓ for a tool that is more interactive than just look at this report and run with it. And from there, we kind of just started building our idea. We talked to potential customers, to potential early advisors and investors, and ⁓ kind of really shaped what we were thinking of doing and how we built our product.

Niklas:You I think you are in the center for startups in the world. what is the large advantage if you're in San Francisco?

Calvin Lim:I think it's just the people you meet every day. I can go to I can you can go to an event almost every night. There's great events, there's great networking. You can meet a lot of nice people, but also I think the general personality of people in San Francisco is very forthcoming. ⁓ people in San Francisco are very nice, they're really open to helping you and really helping you network and connect you to the right people. So for example, I I like to work and build community and events. So I volunteer at my friends' events. If If I meet someone there that I think could really benefit from a conversation with someone else that I know, or that there's like a mutual benefit, I always try to introduce the two parties together. So for example, last night I went to a launch party. There was a couple of ⁓ attendees that were co-founders of a project. They wanted to run some events. And I was able to connect in with three or four people in my network that are also looking to host an event during ⁓ San Francisco Tech Week. And this is great opportunity where they're not competitors, they're kind of in the adjacent space or they're kind of in different layers to where it makes a lot of sense for them to to partner up, maybe save a little bit of money on hosting an event and really bring two communities together and and really grow their own communities.

Niklas:heard that a lot and I think that I've actually seen a video of Paul Graham saying, Okay, people always ask me what the center of San Francisco is, and he's at an event at the time, and he said this evening it's here because it's always where the people are that meet and that they build the future and that's that's a lot about about the city. It's really nice to hear from you because you I think for a lot of listeners also they are not in in the center. ⁓ for those who are very lucky it's I think very nice to understand it. For the other ones, it's interesting to learn about it. And also what do you think is a mindset thing that that helps you build a company in this specific place?

Calvin Lim:I think there's two different mindsets that are very valuable. The first one is you have a lot of smart people in San Francisco and they're focused on building like innovation, ingenuity. The second one is people that are trying to build something for change. And I think I kind of fall into that second boat where the end goal is not to build the best product out there or build the next unicorn. The end goal is to build a product that really solves a pain point for the customer. ⁓ So I'm on that boat where I really wanna solve the problem, I really wanna help. And if it ends up being a fantastic company, I would love that. But the main focus is how can I help people? How can I build a tool that really changes how small business owners were able to run their business? Because I think everything today is built for those large big players. Not a lot of people want to spend the time to focus on mid-market, small businesses because there's just not a lot of money to squeeze out of them. And I think that's actually what makes it such a very interesting point is because I've worked with small businesses in the past. I've kind of got to know them and And how they operate, and I come from a family that also does small businesses that I feel like they shouldn't be overglooked just because they're not able to pay, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars for a product. They're still valuable customers and they serve all just the same amount of people today as some of these bigger companies, right? so I think that's this that's the very important mindset that I'm having. ⁓ but then you just see so many smart people, and I think you just have to ⁓ I guess a very popular phrase is is what I tell people is you have to stay rooted in substance. I think if you get too far ahead of yourself and you always feel like you're you're falling behind because the person to your right may be raising twenty five million dollars and the person to your left may be working at open AI, right? You just have to kinda stay in your lane and and focus on what you're doing and really avoid trying to compare yourself to the person next to you 'cause then you start to get in that mode mode of like you're feeling like you're behind and instead of focusing on a product, you're focusing on chasing somebody else.

Niklas:Looking at small to medium businesses, I think you have a great point there. And I I this just reminded me of ⁓ the biography of Mark Bennyhoff that I read. Like when he started Salesforce, they weren't going after the very large businesses in the first place. At least how I understand it. How he got there was kind of he was involved in his parents' business when he was very young. So he exp and then later on was at Oracle and after he left Oracle. He figured that he could build something in the cloud, so running on servers as a website that acts as a CRM, right? So at that point in time, CRM was rather, I think on premise, ⁓ local software connecting to some database somewhere. And his switch actually was to build it for For small companies running on a server in the cloud, they had don't didn't have to do anything. So the first it was a time of the first SaaS. And he also started with smaller companies, I think, at the c as customers and then moved up market. And I think that's a classical path that can be very, very successful, just ⁓ st especially starting with companies that have like shorter sales cycles, ⁓ like small and medium businesses, where the people can make fast decisions and buy it, even you don't so you don't make that much money and then move up market.

Calvin Lim:Yeah, that's that's hundred percent correct and I hear that from

Niklas:What?

Calvin Lim:from different investors, right? When I talk to them. ⁓ some of the potential investors that we've talked to, they're like they agree that we should go after small businesses because you're reaching the end user versus, you know, someone that's a business a buyer but not necessarily end user. So you're able to to get to the end user and and that person is most likely the buyer as well. So really it just shortens that cycle. just the only friction you have is is how much are they willing to pay for a product.

Niklas:Yeah, that's definitely true. So contract sizes are different. If you look at the next twelve to twenty four months, where do you think ⁓ analytics and AI agents for small and medium businesses headed? What will change?

Calvin Lim:That's a tough question. I think it's I think what we see today is gonna be completely different in twelve months and then in another 12 months it's gonna be completely different again. I think things are moving so quickly, but I think there has been a shift to really train these non-tenical legacy businesses to using or incorporating some AI at at a very base level. So this year I went to San Francisco Small Business Week, I think back in early or back at the end of April. We hosted an event that was really just teaching the older generation how to use AI for very simple things, right? this year it was how to rewrite your emails, how to auto-generate a PowerPoint with gamma, how to do some of these things in the past which would take several hours, now you can do it within five minutes. The same goes for for analytics. I think in the past, maybe the bottleneck was learning how to do APIs or connecting data sources and understanding how tabular data structure works. The next bottleneck would be knowing how to write SQL. I think today The analytics market and the job market SQL is is still a great skill to have, but more people are not even writing code to begin with, right? ⁓ so from the small business front, I think they're going to adapt and and start to leverage AI tooling to really get better answers, which will then influence the decisions they make. So maybe in the past they may take several months to make changes to say your s your restaurant. Something doesn't sell well, you're ordering too much product in the past. it may take them three months to figure out how to make those changes. Now within a month you get enough data to where you can make really insightful decisions that can really impact or extend your your lifeline.

Niklas:Yeah it's really interesting. We will we will see how it ⁓ turns out. When when you look at Clarity AI, what's next for you and where can people find ⁓ you when they want to try it or get on the wait list.

Calvin Lim:Yeah, so right now we're offering a wait list ⁓ just because our initial core design partners, we want to really take time to make sure what we what we hope to do really solves their problem and pain point. But they can find us at claritycloud.com, they could find me on Twitter ⁓ as well and If anyone is ever in San Francisco, they're always welcome to show up to any of the events that I work with. We always have free food, free coffee, f great networking, and We host events every month. so some of the events that I'm a part of, they're they're great to get to milk meet people. We run an event every month called Break My AI, where founders and builders and and anyone that's interested can come in and test their product as well. And people can try each other's product, get feedback. It's we run a lot of community events as well and ⁓ I would love to be able to host anybody that's coming into the city at some of these events and and introduce them to some of the people that are that are really nice and genuine and can help them ⁓ move the need their needle.

Niklas:Kelvin, that is ⁓ very interesting. I wish you best of luck with clarity and it was really nice to have you on the podcast.

Calvin Lim:Yeah, likewise, I had a really great time.